"I have changed. I am a different person and a different referee than in 2018. The final in Qatar also changed my life. It will be very difficult to get the next final matches. I already know what to expect. Now every semi-final will be like a final for me", says Szymon Marciniak in a special interview for TVPSport.pl at the 1 year anniversary of the World Cup final in Qatar. On the same day, he refereed the semi-final Fluminense-Al Ahly at the Club World Cup in Saudi Arabia.
Rafal Rostkowski: – After a year, how do you remember the moment when you found out that you will referee the final of the World Cup?
Szymon Marciniak: – Actually, it was probably the coolest moment at the World Cup! It was a ritual: every day at 6 p.m. we found out who will referee a given match in two-day time. Everyone had been waiting 10 or 15 minutes earlier at the entrance of this big hall to find out whether they would get a chance that day. And I must admit that it was a moment when I always felt pleasant adrenaline. Because, as we know, referees make some visualizations, some "predictions" during tournaments. They anticipate something, try to "reject" one match, and give themselves a better chance for another one. It is obvious that when it comes to the final, we knew that there were few names in the competition, I would even say: very few. Various sparrows chirped that it would be us. On the one hand, it was definitely some unknown, on the other hand, excitement. And I won't lie - I really expected it to be me. You could say that I gave myself 70-80%, so with such "appointments" it's a lot, because sometimes it's incredibly difficult to guess where you will go to the next match. When Collina started reading, it was such a nice, uplifting moment of a few minutes of speech that we worked hard... Really hard! 45 days together, 64 matches. "Everyone is waiting for this match: Argentina – France, Lusail Stadium." And he just read my name... Incredible joy, and certainly some slight emotion. You could say that it's even very strong with the boys, I immediately wanted to hug them. But they were so moved, so I didn't exaggerate because I didn't want tears to fall. It was truly one of the moments I will remember most in refereeing. And it was one of the most vulnerable moments. Which is not very common for me, but this moment caused lots of emotions. It happened after each reading of the names that when Pierluigi Collina or Massimo Busacca read the names for a given match, the whole room stood up, applauded, and congratulated them. Here, you know, it was the final, so everyone immediately congratulated us. There was incredible applause and uproar. Immediately afterwards, FIFA TV took me for an interview, there was a photo session, and there were a few duties. It was good because we immediately started doing something. There was no such, perhaps unnecessary, excessive euphoria. Then the emotions began to subside, and more congratulations began to arrive. But the moment of announcing the nominations for the final was certainly amazing. One of the two coolest ones at this World Cup. Apart from, of course, the last, final whistle, the whistle after the penalty shootout.
– Some people say, or guess, speculate, that you knew about this nomination earlier. That the moment when it was announced by Pierluigi Collina was, let's say, an official part. Can you tell us what it was like?
– No, that's not true. To be 100% correct, I didn't know. I speak honestly and sincerely. I wouldn't have a problem saying that. There were, of course, some clues. I remember Pierluigi chasing me off the beach. He said: run away from the beach, because you need a lot of energy, and the sun takes away energy. Various things that appeared somewhere could prove this. Other "appointments" could also indicate this. This was already my seventh or eighth major tournament, FIFA or UEFA, so I knew what it looked like... Since my biggest - one could say - rival, the great referee Daniele Orsato, got the semi-final, a lot became clear on paper. There were also other experienced referees who had been predicting us since the quarter-finals: "Simon, Simon, you have the final, you have the final." It is obvious that on the one hand it was a bit of taking the pressure off yourself, because everyone was probably counting on this final... Well, maybe not everyone, but there were a few people who were counting on this final. There was pressure put on me that I was the main candidate. There was double joy, double reward - it appeared somewhere in the back of my mind. But there were a few people who, let's say, knew some things, were close there and also said that I was a candidate in such behind-the-scenes conversations very often. Various things pointed to this. But you know very well that there is a long way from such various premises or rumors to the final decision. Politics was also on our ears. We tried not to listen to it, but there was a rumor that since the United States would host the World Cup in four years, Ismail Elfath, the referee from the USA, has a very good chance of getting the final. There was certainly a small lobby, but we tried to distance ourselves from it. Besides, there were some of my older colleagues, Roberto Rosetti, and Nicola Rizzoli, whom I also talked to and who told me not to listen to these various rumors. And that we did everything we could do, and we look great. For some time, they watched us every day and saw how we worked with the players in training and what it looked like from different angles. We looked very good, but it must be admitted that we put a lot of effort into working with the players. We left nothing to chance. We didn't act half-heartedly. There was simply great behavior during those 10-12 minutes, because we spent so much time practicing every day with two teams that created different situations for us. We were “hungry” for these situations to always be at the highest level. These various premises gave us a really high percentage, but as I said, 70-80% is a lot, but still 20-30%, for such big decisions, is still a lot. This unknown caused a slight "stomach ache", especially in the hours and minutes before our names were read.
– How did you spend the time between being appointed for the final and the final? How did you prepare, how did you relax, how did you rest?
– First of all, Pierluigi Collina surprised us very much, because all the referees expected to hear the names of the referees for the final only 48 hours before the final, as he always used to do. But that day, when he was reading out the name of Al Jassim from Qatar for the third place match, he suddenly said that on the same day he would also read out the names of the referees for the final so that they could think about this decision, this appointment, so to speak... to spend these 24 hours talking to family and friends, and then leave 48 hours just to concentrate on the final. I think it was a great decision, because in those first hours, even the first day, there were a lot of wishes and congratulations... But then it was really about turning off the phone, a ritual. We didn't force anything to change. 48 hours before the final, we had a nice training session with the players, prepared especially for me. The players we had at our disposal as referees during these 45 days, together with two tactical coaches from Italy, prepared some nice situations for us, which we practiced for 10 minutes. These teams played very similarly to Argentina and France, i.e. when the action went to the right side, there was a player imitating Messi, and the opposing team immediately pressed, just like France. The FIFA staff and these teams prepared us incredibly well tactically. No matter what match awaited us, they were able to adapt to how a given team played and how it attacked. Two or three passes, a long ball for example, or tiki taka. Someone may say that 10 minutes is not enough. It's not true, because for 10 minutes, when you are focused only on the game and only on how they create the situation for you, you can visualize something. So, tactically we were well prepared. Later, the day before the final, it was such a relaxed time. We were literally on the pitch with the players for probably 5 or 6 minutes. A light warm-up, a few light accelerations. Tactical meeting with coaches about how they see the final. They always rely a lot on my experience, a bit of football experience, and we always find a golden median. Later, a bit of relaxation, but in a calm way. No sun, no beach, just collecting good energy. We tried to live everyday by doing what we have been doing before. Pawel Sokolnicki, who always liked ping-pong, went to play ping-pong with the boys. Tomek Listkiewicz read a book. Really chill. I sat down with Nicola Rizzoli, a great referee, who had the pleasure of refereeing both the World Cup final and the Champions League final. We were drinking coffee and I asked him what he thought, and he said: Szymon, you are in a place where you don't need pitch advice anymore. I can only tell you what to do "off the field". Turn off your phone, switch off completely, relax, do what you like to do, don't get too excited, because the adrenaline and stress will be enormous anyway. I think all of this together made a difference. You know best that in refereeing there is no golden rule on what to do to make it good. There is no silver bullet - someone will tell you something and the final will go great. There are many little things that make up refereeing. They all have to happen at the right time - and fortunately, that was the case with us. All this and the entire preparation for this final, just over the last 48 hours, was so well planned that everything fell into place. There were no injuries, no micro-injuries, and refereeing is different. I have refereed many matches with minor injuries, and I know what discomfort it is for the head, how a person tries and cheats both himself and his body. Everything worked out here, we were 100% fit and had a good mental approach. We were ready. Just the fact that when you are standing in the tunnel, seeing the teams, Messi comes up to you and says: we expected you to be in the final. Giroud did the same and said: Damn, we are glad you are refereeing the final. You have a lot of trust on both sides, you can feel it. It's just that all you think is what I said to my boys. "Gentlemen, let's just not fuck this up." That's really all I could think of. Everything else was prepared until the last moment and the only thought in my head before the anthems was: damn, just don't ruin it, everyone is watching you today, everyone will be watching. They certainly kept their fingers crossed, because we also felt a lot of sympathy and support from many Polish fans. And the fact that our Polish team is in the finals, so the great sympathy and faith in our players has transferred from them to us. And we felt that too. It was also a bit of a burden that we can come back and it might be nice, but we can come back and... I know what country I live in. We know that, unfortunately, everyone knows refereeing, including football, so everyone will judge us. Somewhere behind there was a concern about refereeing well. So as not to be unnecessarily criticized.
– What was the most difficult thing for you during the World Cup final? What situations?
– The beginning of the match was crucial. In the second or third minute, when Rabiot fouled Rodrigo De Paul, there was a re-match in two minutes. After playing the ball, Rodrigo ran in quite strongly with his elbow from the back to the hip. One pushed the other, he fell, jumped up and that was the moment when I ran up and had to react. I immediately compared it to the Argentina-Australia match in the Round of 16, when, at the end of the match, around the 80th minute, Rodrigo verbally attacked Tomek Listkiewicz for some "stupidity". Foul, quite obvious actually for Australians. Rodrigo didn't agree with it, and I had to run in and react very... differently. I don't know if I had to do that, but I reacted very strongly, and he backed off. He said to me: Simon, calma, calma, calm down. I wouldn't react so strongly, but I had to defend the assistant. And here there was a similar situation when I ran up and started to react loudly and quite sharply to Rodrigo De Paul. While in the first match between Australia and Argentina he was scared, withdrew, and was very docile - this time it was different. I saw fire in his eyes and immediately reacted sharply: didn't I see what he did just now? I said: what? and he said that he won't give up here. And this was a key moment that - when we analyzed it during the post-match talks - everyone assessed that if I would had lost the match there, it could have been completely different. People sometimes don't understand it. Even now, when the first episode of the second series of "Referees" has appeared, some people say: oh, you're screaming; and so on... People don't understand that, when you have tens of thousands of people in the stadium, and so many people are shouting, in order to say something to the player, for him to hear you, you have to shout to him. This is a normal thing. Sometimes I laugh that they make me look like a bit of a murderer or a guy who shouts on the pitch, but it's completely different. I discuss three-quarters of the things on the pitch with the players very calmly, in a nice, friendly way, sometimes I joke. And there are times when the referee has to take control and has to make the player understand. We are alone on the field. I'm alone in the middle. There are two of my colleagues on the sides, but they are always far from the situation. And there are 22 players. Now let's imagine that these 22 are shouting, or have some grudges and so on... The referee's job is to react the way I reacted in the final, or the way it was shown in the TV series "Referees". You have to grab such a guy, nastily speaking, by the neck and make him understand it. Just like it was in the final with De Paul, just like it was in the semi-final of the Champions League with Haaland, or as seen in the series "Referees" - with Karlstrom from Lech Poznan or Bejger from Slask Wrocław. When a referee reprimands one player, it is not just a reprimand to one player. It's a reprimand that all players see - 22 on the field and all off it. And they see that if a player loses the fight with the referee, then everyone has this respect, but they also have a positive, of course, "fear" for this referee and respect that he won this fight, to understand clearly: he "got" this player, but of course for a good cause. In order for these competitions to run well, so that the player doesn't shout at the referee, or the referee doesn't shout at the player - that's not the point, but sometimes someone has to take control. It's just like at home: the father sets the rules, and the referee is a bit of a father on the pitch. He has to make everything fair, so that both teams feel fair, safe and feel that the referee will step in and react appropriately at any given moment. Just like at home: some kids try to cross a certain line, and that's what the referee is for, to stop, to say: no, it's "enough". Sometimes you need to raise your voice, sometimes you need to tickle, sometimes you need to praise. And that was also the case in the final. After De Paul reacted quite sharply, in retaliation I put everything on one card: either me or Rodrigo. And I entered very strongly. Well, very strongly. But okay, I won the fight and Rodrigo immediately started calming me down. I also saw it in his eyes that when I got very close to him with my head and started to be quite aggressive, because he was aggressive too, he started to withdraw. Then I knew that this was my "space", my 15 seconds and it was either me or him. But it's nice because he accepted it with respect. After a moment I was running and I knocked him, I said: is it ok? "It's ok" - he replied. We also got a high five because it's not about me proving to everyone that I'm the most important. It's just that there are moments on the pitch and during the match when the referee has to really come in very strongly and take complete control. And if the players understand this, then there will be no mass confrontations or any unsporting behavior. That's what happened with Rodrigo, but it was probably the most difficult moment. Moreover, at the very beginning - it's also such a surprise that when you leave, you think that everything is prepared, but it's not. Suddenly you see that it's not only you who are under pressure, the players are also under enormous pressure, because they want to become world champions in 90 minutes. That initial moment was very difficult, but I'm glad Rodrigo understood it. Rabiot too, because he very quickly said: OK, Simon, I understand. And we moved on. And then those long minutes were very good. They "bought" my decisions. But the minutes that looked so good were because of what happened in that third minute.
– This match is considered the best World Cup final in history. It may also have been the hardest to referee. It was probably the best refereed World Cup final in history. But you know, fans don't care much about praise, it's already been given. I wonder what mistakes you admit yourself in this final. There are some mistakes in every match. What are Szymon Marciniak's comments about this match?
– Throughout all my career, I have never had a perfect match. Never! Whenever you do a self-assessment, you always find something. It's a bad advantage, it's a bad foul. There are many such events during the match. Normally, if we had a video test in a seminar, we would call it a foul. But for the sake of the match, for the needs of the match, this foul is not whistled to show the teams that "I'll let you play, don't knock me down, I don't accept it." I found a few things like that in the final. Either a foul that I didn't whistle, or vice versa: I whistled something that was soft, but needed to balance the fouls and balance the emotions. Because sometimes, when emotions run high, you have to find a small foul to give yourself some time, to calm down the players, to then approach them and say: no, calm down, I saw there, why are you getting excited, why are you nervous - I saw it, I'm keeping an eye on it. These are emotions that a referee must manage at some stage. Of course, I understand that sometimes fans, even some players at a certain level, simply do not understand it, because they have not played at such a high level and may never play at such a high level. These things are not written in the "Laws of the Game" or in the guidelines, but managing emotions is something incredibly important. And also very difficult, because sometimes one bad decision can cause a series of subsequent decisions that happen because of this one decision of the referee... The referee's work and management of the match must be discussed at the end of the match. Then we see whether his decision in the 13th or 20th minute meant that the remaining minutes were good. Maybe he didn't give a yellow card or he gave a card that is "soft" and someone will say "he gave a soft card" or a card that is undeserved. Maybe, but with this one decision he made other decisions very good. The first decision that immediately comes to my mind was somewhere towards the end of the match. I had a situation where Acuna fouled Coman quite badly, it was after some Argentinian loss, and for me the same "in" was a "yellow plus", to be honest. When I saw Coman jumping up, I was afraid... I was very close, I started the action, I whistled immediately, because Coman breaking up seemed to me like a desire for revenge, that he was about to do something. And there I read the game wrong, because I should have used the advantage for the French and after the action had finished, I should have definitely shown the yellow card to Acuna. Even though, as many people say, there would have been a successful advantage, and this foul would supposedly have been stopping of a promising action. But it wasn't a SPA, just a rude and inconsiderate entry just to get fouled. I could have easily used the advantage and returned to Acuna with a yellow card after the action. I whistled very quickly because I was afraid that something bigger was about to happen. This is what these choices I'm talking about are sometimes like. Sometimes you can ignore something and avoid something. Or, as here, I thought that if I blew the whistle, I would avoid something bigger, retaliation, perhaps a red card. That in a moment it would be yellow for Acuna, red for Coman, because Acuna's foul was really bad. And as it turned out, I forgot that Coman is a player who wants to play football. He's not a player who fouls, he just plays forward. Rather, it is his opponents who foul. And here I read the game wrong and that was my biggest garden pebble when it comes to this match. I know it wasn't a perfect match. Of course, I am happy that the main decisions were correct. But, as you said, we will always find something in every match, especially with such emotions, with such football giants. They can create something out of nothing, and the opponent will do everything to stop such a player. So, it wasn't perfect, but it was good plus or very good minus. Either way, you can be satisfied.
– And what did you say to Mbappe after the final? The TV showed you talking to him. It seemed like quite a close conversation.
– Kylian surprised me. The director arranged us in such a way after the final that, as referees, we were supposed to be on the right side of the tunnel entrance, i.e. next to the Argentine reserve bench. And, of course, it was a bit awkward to stand near Argentines who were having fun, dancing and celebrating. Many of them came up to us and thanked us for the match. Then the French started to come. I was standing with Pierluigi Collina and Didier Deschamps was the first to approach us. He offered his hand and congratulated the very difficult final. He said that "it was a very difficult final, I have no complaints." Later, others came: Olivier Giroud, with whom I always had a great contact and we also talked for a while, Hugo Lloris, and the last one was Kylian Mbappe. I saw him heading towards me. I could sense that he wanted to approach me, but he was depressed - and I approached him. Of course, I won't say what we said, but I can say that he surprised me. When we held hands, he put his head on my chest and also said two words to me. I saw that it was a difficult moment for him. He played an amazing match, scoring three goals, including a penalty kick. He played phenomenally; he encouraged France to play. I took him and hugged him. There are moments when you don't think - it's just instinct that works. Two guys: him - a giant in football, me - after the match. I didn't expect it, I just wanted to give him a high five, congratulate him on his game and tell him that this is how it is in football - someone wins, someone loses. But when he actually got emotional and put his head down, I didn't know how to behave. I just instinctively hugged him and said two words to him, two words in his ear. And I'm glad he remembered it, because now, when we met in Paris in the tunnel before the match against Newcastle, he came up to me. It was very nice. He said they watched the final later and it was a brilliantly refereed match. This is also nice because a losing team doesn't always have good memories. This is normal, even though the referee may not have made any major mistakes. But you think: we played, he refereed, we lost. It stands to reason that he certainly didn't have to say it. But I will probably remember it for the rest of our careers. It was nice of him and said with great respect.
– In Saudi Arabia, at the Club World Cup, you probably will not referee the final. What do you think are your chances for another grand final: the Olympic Games, the European Championships or the Club World Cup, but in 2025, expanded to 32 teams?
– This may sound a bit funny, but a certain transformation has taken place here. I have had some great conversations with people I respect a lot and who respect me a lot. Also, with those people who helped me a lot in my career. People who know me know this: I am morbidly ambitious. It's always been a bit of a curse for me. I was over motivated many times. Hence the failed World Cup in Russia – on my part and from my point of view. I went there with huge ambitions. I allowed myself to inflate the balloon completely wrongly, because I was one of the youngest referees, with absolutely no chance for anything big, and from the very beginning I started to think that I was going for some big matches. Sometimes you need a bucket of cold water. As you can see, today I am a completely different referee, a different person. I have much more empathy, sensitivity, but above all humility because refereeing teaches you humility. And here in Saudi Arabia, when I was waiting for my matches, I thought that I would have another match some other time, another pair of teams. It turned out that I was in the semi-final. I had these cool conversations later. An interesting statement was made. "Szymon, do you think that you will have all the finals? It doesn't look like that. These are tournaments that are a great test for many other referees who may be able to referee something big in a few years. It's a big dose of adrenaline, this is a large dose of experience. You have achieved everything in refereeing, you already have everything, you can't have anything greater. What you have experienced, what you have received from life and, in fact, from us - because they selected me for the final of the world cup - this is something so incredible and so few people in the world have it, that for you going forward the finals may be... the semi-finals." It's good that such words were said. I think I need to change my mind a bit and change my thinking. We know in our refereeing community that semi-finals are often the most difficult and unpleasant matches. Someone is eliminated, someone enters the final, someone loses hope for something great, and someone gains hope for something even greater. This is an amazing thing. Secondly, being in the semi-finals is also amazing. And, as they told me here, I can't have all the finals in all the competitions. Initially, I felt my sports anger and I couldn't come to terms with it. After a while, 15 minutes, maybe a little later, when we were talking about it, I realized: Damn, they're so right! My finals were and are very important for me and my career. Thanks to them, I gained many fans, also in Arab countries. The final in Saudi Arabia or other finals may be very important for other referees. Build them, develop them, help them achieve higher goals, maybe even reach the finals of bigger tournaments... That's how I look at it now. The semi-final of the Club World Cup was absolutely the most important for me now and was like a final for me. Then I will share my experiences and try to help other referees. I will referee for as long as I can feel the adrenaline in it. We'll see what life shows.
– What did the World Cup final in Qatar change in your life?
– It changed a lot, no doubt, in terms of popularity. I don't like this word because a referee should always be in the shadow. But today, you know, it's a little different. We are very recognizable. Invited everywhere. It is very nice. Of course, there are many more responsibilities. In previous years, I was a dozen, maybe several dozen times, in places such as orphanages, hospitals, schools, universities and prisons. This year, well over 150 times. This is simply a new obligation that has appeared. Someone will say: It's not an obligation, you don't have to... As I said, life has taught me a bit of humility. Until 2018 I was at the top, but I fell off that peak and then I almost ended my career. It was not known whether I would be able to continue it. Today I am at the absolute top, so you can say that I have touched everything and, paradoxically, I am much humbler today, when I am where I am, than at the time when I was climbing, when I was proud. Youth is sometimes nice, but it's also kind of thankless. It pushes us to places we probably shouldn't be. It puts words on our tongues that we sometimes shouldn't say. But each of us was young. Each of us has made mistakes somewhere. Today it's a little different. Szymon Marciniak is a mature referee, a mature husband and father. But also a referee with two grand finals. After many matches in which he should have made a different decision. And all these new responsibilities that I have - meetings with children, with young people, whether for people who have made a mistake and are in prisons, or for people in social homes and similar places - this is a form of my debt repayment toward a life that has actually given me a lot. I have already received so much from life that I have no right to want even a little more. My path will definitely change. A bit toward the desire to teach, toward giving others from my experience. Besides, I think people have noticed how often in the Polish league, in Ekstraklasa, I go with younger referees. Just to advise them, help them develop, and sometimes bring them down to earth. Because I wouldn't want others to make the mistakes I made. I try to show them what is good and what is bad. Of course, everyone will choose their own path anyway. Everyone is the architect of their own fate and I think we learn best from our mistakes. Yes, I think that these finals, the World Cup or the Champions League final in Istanbul, changed me a lot. On the other hand, people who know me think - and I am happy about it - that I am still the same Szymon. Even cooler than the one I was before these finals. Back then it was a rat race all the time. I always wanted to be the best. I just wanted to grow all the time. Training, training, clips, clips, training, matches... Today, I think I am, above all, a fulfilled referee. But I still want to be the one who is on top. I don't use the word "best" on purpose because it's hard to say who is the best. One day this referee may have a very difficult match, officiate it brilliantly and be the best for many, while for others the best is someone else. But I would like to remain at the forefront and show that Polish referees are a very cool brand. I am also glad that we managed to attract so many referees. Today, some international training camps have 8 or 9 people from Poland. I remember years, for example 2011, when I was completely alone on such courses. And I know what it feels like today when there are almost 10 people. This year it is an incredibly strong group. Two more people are joining: Lukasz Kuzma and Damian Kos, who will become FIFA referees. It's cool because there will be many of us again at the UEFA training camp in Cyprus in January. These are the things that make me happy today. Some might say it's a bit strange, but that's how it is sometimes. Once you reach the top, you start to enjoy other, slightly smaller things. And I still find something in refereeing that gives me satisfaction.
Source: TVP Sport/Rafal Rostkowski
