Polish referees who officiated the 2022 World Cup final returned to their homeland. Their excellent work was appreciated with a very warm welcome at the airport. Tomasz Listkiewicz, who was one of Szymon Marciniak's assistants, did not expect that their success would cause such a stir in the country. In an interview for TVP Sport, he spoke about his unforgettable experience in Qatar.
– After the final you spent two more days in Qatar. How did you spend Monday and Tuesday?
– We had certain obligations toward FIFA, such as talking to their media or signing cards and souvenirs for sponsors. There was also a summary of the match and a farewell dinner, but later we managed to relax a bit. Families came over and we spent time with them. We could lay back and relax a bit. Emotions are only now coming down from us and the body demands regeneration, so we will still be resting until Christmas.
– How did you manage to deal with the emotions before the final?
– There were two aspects. The first was not to put unnecessary pressure on ourselves. Thinking about the importance of the game only hinders good refereeing. The main task was to cut off from everything else. I have not replied to text messages and congratulations since Saturday. I apologize to everyone I did not reply to, but we had to act like this. The second thing - tactically, physically, and mentally, we prepared the same as for every game. This was not the time to invent something new. There was only an analysis of how teams and individual players played. On the day of the match, also standard preparations with a light breakfast and a carbohydrate lunch, plus a nap. We were at the stadium an hour and a half before the match. There was an inspection of the pitch and the goal-line technology system, checking communication with the VAR center. The music playlist was also the same as usual.
– In the conversation before the final, your dad said that you are responsible for choosing the music. What kind is dominant?
- Our playlist is quite long, and we play it randomly, so it is not always the same songs. Rock and guitar music predominate. It is energetic and uplifting, but not too spicy either. It is not about becoming aggressive or over motivated. Music is supposed to put you in a good mood. We have rituals that work. In sports, you should not be superstitious, because it can be disturbing, but rituals that bring you to the right state of concentration are perfectly fine.
– Your father, Michal, recalled 1990, when he himself was selected for the final. You were still a young boy, but did it cross your mind at that time to repeat your father's achievement one day?
– No, I was 12 at the time and I wanted to be more of a rock musician or a football player. At the age of a sneaker, I tried to kick the ball, but without much effect. After all, in music, God was also stingy with my talent. After two years of learning to play the guitar, I felt that big stages were not waiting for me. I was very proud of my dad, I still remember those emotions, but it never occurred to me then that I would follow in his footsteps. I signed up for the refereeing course in college, and it was still a secret from my dad. Even when I started refereeing, I treated it more as an adventure and an opportunity to slightly strengthen the student budget. It was only later that I met very cool people, thanks to whom I slowly began to swallow this bug.
– The media in various parts of the world wrote about the case of the Listkiewicz family. Do you know whether there are similar family connections in the refereeing environment?
– I do not remember any spectacular ones. It is very popular in England that being a football referee becomes a family tradition. For example, Michael Oliver's dad, who also worked in Qatar, was a referee. Admittedly, more at the regional level, but the son followed in his footsteps. He became the youngest referee in the Premier League at the age of 26. Then someone else beat him up. Howard Webb's dad was also a referee. Of course, there were hardly any cases of father and son refereeing the final of the World Cup, but I remember that in the 1970s there was probably one referee from Italy at the World Cup, and his son also worked at this most important tournament years later.
– Let's get to the final itself. What was the hardest moment of the game from your perspective?
– I had one key moment, which was the goal to make it 3-2. In referee jargon, it was a "tight" situation. The distance between the offside line and the striker's point closest to the goal line was very close. It was a dynamic action with quick passing. When the goal was scored, I waited a bit with my soul on my shoulder to see what VAR would say. The whole match was challenging and tense in terms of cooperation. There are provocations between the players, so you have to keep your eyes open. We worked a lot with Szymon to have this cooperation well organized. We know who has to look at which zone of the pitch. We felt this mental fatigue building up. On the other hand, we were very happy to be taking part in such a great event. It was known that we would not run out of physical or mental strength, because we devoted several years of our lives to this passion and profession.
– On the occasion of the action at 3-2, discussions arose about the Argentines who ran from the bench onto the pitch at the moment of Leo Messi's shot. Is there anything the referee can do about this situation?
– No, absolutely. When the French scored the equalizing goal at 3-3, four of their players had already crossed the line with joy. The rules of the game are not a penal code. You can't analyze everything literally. The most important thing is the spirit of the game. For example, there is a rule saying that play cannot continue without a corner flag. Let's imagine that the flag is broken and there is no spare. Well, what, Szymon would say that on page 30 in the rules there is such a provision, and we cancel the final of the World Cup? Of course, there are reserve flags at this level, but I give it as an example. This is the level of absurdity if someone finds irregularities in the goal of the Argentines. Imagine if we had stopped the action and disallowed the goal. I think we would have a problem to finish the game and leave the pitch because it would be a scandal. There is also a rule that the goalkeeper may only hold the ball in his hands for six seconds. No one counts down to a fraction of a second. The spirit of the game, tradition and guidelines that do not break the rules, but add a bit to the interpretation somewhere, are the most important. During the tournament we had various briefings where Pierluigi Collina said that if refereeing consisted in knowing the rules of the game by heart, there would be several hundred million excellent referees in the world. Everyone can learn 150 pages, but as you can see, there are not so many of these outstanding referees, because that's not what it's all about. Anyway, in the preamble to the rules you can read that all situations should be considered in the context of the spirit of the game and sport justice.
– At half-time you had to be aware that your work was going well. What did you say to yourself when it was time for those few minutes to catch your breath?
– They always say 30 percent of the work has been done by half-time. Usually, the second half is more difficult. Szymon said it was fine. He felt accepted by the players. We have good decisions, because VAR confirms all the key ones, but this is not the time to rejoice. There is the rest of the match and need concentration to do the same in the second half. No one has yet received an award for being a good referee for 45 minutes. Focusing on completing a task to the end is the basis of sports psychology. With increasing fatigue, both in players and referees, the number of errors increases closer to the end of the match. Knowing this, you cannot rest on your laurels during the break. We always remind ourselves of this, thanks to which we managed to maintain the right level.
– I do not know if the referee has time to appreciate the artistry of the players during the match, but you were lucky to officiate outstanding players. Which player made the biggest impression during the final?
– I have not watched the game yet and during the game we are very focused on our task. Even when we communicate with each other, we try to use numbers, so we do not say someone is holding Messi. This could impose additional pressure. Thanks to this, all players are treated equally. Regardless of whether it is an Ekstraklasa, Champions League, or World Cup match, after the final whistle I cannot say whether the match was at a good football level. I don't even look at the ball, but at the second-last player of the defending team, and I see the ball out of the corner of my eye. Of course, when the goal was scored, I saw that there was a nice move by Messi, on the other hand, I saw something from behind. However, it is such a flattened image from the level of the pitch and such a specific way of concentration that I cannot judge the sports level.
– Did you expect such a warm welcome at the airport in Poland?
– I am very surprised, positively of course. I am very pleased. Referees don't have that much media activity daily, so I'm also tired, but it's a nice tiredness. Referees are either criticized or there is silence about them. This time our work was more appreciated due to the importance of the event. Before and after the game, we felt support from friends, family, referees from Poland and other countries, but also from the media. I am overwhelmed by the scale of interest and positive reception, but I am very happy about it.
– Is there already a concrete idea where your shoes from the final will be placed?
– No, of course I tweeted this photo with a grain of salt. The shoes are still in the bag because I haven't had time to unpack. I donated the match jersey signed by Szymon, Collina and the whole team for a Christmas charity auction. I think that I will use the shoes during refereeing Ekstraklasa matches and European competitions. We got a limited edition, made especially for the World Cup. They are very comfortable shoes, so I will not get rid of them for now.
– On the occasion of your success, there was a discussion about why there are no transfers of referees between leagues. How do you approach this idea?
– The idea was already there. The refereeing authorities wanted to "outplay" talented referees from smaller competitions in stronger leagues, so that they would be ready for matches in Europe. Competitions in any given country are conducted by national associations or separate commercial law companies. UEFA cannot force them to accept referees from another federation. Such exchanges take place, but sporadically. Once in a while, referees from Poland are invited to referee matches of the Czech league. We once had a very interesting and useful exchange with the Japanese federation. The Japanese refereed Ekstraklasa, and we did J-League. Our careers will last maybe eight more years, so in our referee lifetime transfers of referees are unlikely to materialize. It must be said, however, that the more such exchanges and getting to know a different football culture, the better. The referees will develop faster.
– In one of the conversations you mentioned the need to set new goals. There is no game bigger than the World Cup final. So how do you motivate yourself to carry on with your plans and what are your goals now?
– The greatest dream is fulfilled, because the most prestigious match is behind us. We will not get a second World Cup final. Conversations or reading the autobiographies of outstanding athletes show that it is easier to reach the top than to stay there for several years. This can be our overall challenge. We did a beautiful thing, but now it would be a shame to fail three matches in the Polish league and lose all the respect we earned. We have to take small steps; it's all about focusing on the task at hand. When we go to an Ekstraklasa match, we don't think that if things go well, we have a chance for the Polish Cup final. The same with the Champions League - when the quarter-finals come out, you can't think that we can be candidates for the final. Refereeing is not a competition, we don't go out on the field to compete with other referees, but to ensure that the match is played according to the rules of the game. It is the committee that selects the referees. There is no point in setting goals that are not 100% dependent on our work. We have to stay down to earth, go out to a match and referee it well.
Source: TVP Sport